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Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
Hi, everyone:
I'd like to get some opinions on how to choose an appropriate tempo in French baroque organ works. When I look at the score for an organ piece by someone like P. Dandrieu, there is no tempo indication given (only a title, such as recit, duo, dialogue, etc.). So, I guess determining tempo is up to the performer. I understand there is a convention in determining registration based on the title of a movement; but is there any convention on how fast or slow to play a given movement based on its title? For example, how fast/slow does one play a recit relative to a duo, and so on? Is it the convention to play through all movements of a piece at one tempo or vary each movement with a different tempo? I'm hoping that some of you more experienced organists can provide some guidance. Thank you.
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by The Half-baked Organist Jan 21, 2022 04:18 AM
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Replies (16) |
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
You could start by listening to performances on YouTube; you will probably develop a feel for the right tempos, sensing that some play it too fast and others too slow.
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by adri Jan 21, 2022 06:08 AM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
dpmx677d You might start by reading David Ponsford's magnificent book on this genre of music: https://www.amazon.com/French-Organ-Musical-Performance-Reception/dp/1316620743 Tempo can be important and varies by the type of movement. But matters of rhythm, articulation, ornamentation, and registration also play a major role. Ponsford's book is organized by type of piece (Dialog, Duo, Trio, Plein Jeu, etc.) and describes various details - including some that are idiosyncratic to just one or two composers. For some time the book was only available in a very expensive hardback edition, but now it is in affordable paperback so there's no reason to hesitate. Erik
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by Hoofdwerk Jan 21, 2022 01:07 PM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
I don't play any French baroque music and this might be covered in the book but I imagine tempo might be partly determined by acoustics and the speach of reeds so would be determined from organ to organ. I feel that it would also be based on ornamentation which is present in most pieces and needs to fit in to the piece.
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by Erzahler Jan 21, 2022 06:15 PM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
Erzahler wrote:
I don't play any French baroque music and this might be covered in the book but I imagine tempo might be partly determined by acoustics and the speach of reeds so would be determined from organ to organ. I feel that it would also be based on ornamentation which is present in most pieces and needs to fit in to the piece. Yes, those factors are indeed important. Ignoring the room and speech of the stops is almost always disastrous. Ornamentation is a deep topic in itself within French baroque music, and it gets a lot of print in the book.
There are general principles based on type; for example, Plein Jeu movements tend to be slow and stately when on the Grand Orgue and more spritely when on the Positive. Duos tend to be faster and sharply pointed, trios tend to be slower and more gracefully pointed. Fugues grave slower, gaie faster (though both are often just titled "Fugue" so one must look at the music to see which type it is). Recits are often on the slow side, taking many of their melodic and harmonic devices from French opera. Time signature often yields tempo clues as well as what notes, if any, are eligible for inegale treatment... But all this is in far more detail in Ponsford's book, so that's where to turn for definitive advice.
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by Hoofdwerk Jan 21, 2022 07:06 PM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
Thank you, all, for the replies so far. Musically, I'm quite isolated, so these are all helpful suggestions for me. I'll definitely check out the recommended book.
I generally try not to listen to others' performances of pieces I'm learning (especially when I've never heard the piece performed before) because I find that they influence my own interpretation too much and I want to build up my own interpretive vision.
A few of you mentioned the "speech" of the stops. I've not heard this expression before. By that do you mean to refer to the tonal quality of the stops? For example, an organ with a sharper or more sibilant tone lends itself to playing pieces a bit faster because of the clarity of tone, while an organ on the opposite end may require slower playing so the notes can be properly articulated? Or is this a reference to the type of stops actually available on the organ?
Sorry, I'm asking lots of questions. The French baroque scene really seems deep and fascinating, and there's lots to learn. I'm really enjoying the music.
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by The Half-baked Organist Jan 22, 2022 01:25 AM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
The Half-baked Organist wrote:
Thank you, all, for the replies so far. Musically, I'm quite isolated, so these are all helpful suggestions for me. I'll definitely check out the recommended book.
I generally try not to listen to others' performances of pieces I'm learning (especially when I've never heard the piece performed before) because I find that they influence my own interpretation too much and I want to build up my own interpretive vision.
A few of you mentioned the "speech" of the stops. I've not heard this expression before. By that do you mean to refer to the tonal quality of the stops? For example, an organ with a sharper or more sibilant tone lends itself to playing pieces a bit faster because of the clarity of tone, while an organ on the opposite end may require slower playing so the notes can be properly articulated? Or is this a reference to the type of stops actually available on the organ?
Sorry, I'm asking lots of questions. The French baroque scene really seems deep and fascinating, and there's lots to learn. I'm really enjoying the music. I understand your concerns about listening to others performing the pieces you like to practice.
However, and this is my personal teaching and learning philosophy: ideally, I believe, the best way to learn a piece is by passive and active involvement. The influence of others on your own performance may initially play a role, but once you become totally familiar and comfortable with the piece, you certainly will do it "your own way". I see nothing wrong with learning from good performances; they are like teacher. That's also the case with this entire website: you listen; you like something not heard before; you may want to practice the piece yourself; you get some ideas from this place, and this well aid you in doing it "on your own".
Since these old composers aren't around themselves anymore, a contemporary good performance will act as the best possible substitute.
Anyway, this is my take on learning as an active and passive involvement.
Good luck with it all!
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by adri Jan 22, 2022 03:53 AM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
I guess it's very useful to listen to some CD recordings by good professional organists ; at least, it may keep one safe from a complete misunderstanting of the style required by a piece.
But it's necessary to listen to several different versions, so as to limit the risk of trying to mimic slavishly a peculiar version. An during the learning process, one progressively builds its own idea of the piece, with the competent guys versions not as models, but as an opportunity fo feed and to stimulate one's own personal and original thinking.
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by PLRT Jan 22, 2022 09:47 AM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
I for my part found it also very helpful to work through various recordings of French music, often with the partition to see how other people play it. For me recordings of Marie-Claire Alain and particularly Andre Isoir were very influential. Usually listening is for me the second step: I start by looking at the piece for myself, playing it and recording a first version, listening to my recording to have close control of what I did, recording it again, working this way till I arrive at a "stable" version. Then listen to other performances, checkout what other people do, come back to playing myself ... Usually, I find that I do not follow in detail what I have heard - but it influences my interpretation and for myself, I have the impression, that things get better this way. Besides the already mentioned book, I found also this work by Busch helpful: https://www.amazon.de/Interpretation-franz%C3%B6sischen-Orgelmusik-Hermann-Busch/dp/3875373138/ It is in German, so I am not sure if it is helpful for you.
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by WAF80 Jan 22, 2022 09:50 AM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
The Half-baked Organist wrote:
Thank you, all, for the replies so far. Musically, I'm quite isolated, so these are all helpful suggestions for me. I'll definitely check out the recommended book.
I generally try not to listen to others' performances of pieces I'm learning (especially when I've never heard the piece performed before) because I find that they influence my own interpretation too much and I want to build up my own interpretive vision.
A few of you mentioned the "speech" of the stops. I've not heard this expression before. By that do you mean to refer to the tonal quality of the stops? For example, an organ with a sharper or more sibilant tone lends itself to playing pieces a bit faster because of the clarity of tone, while an organ on the opposite end may require slower playing so the notes can be properly articulated? Or is this a reference to the type of stops actually available on the organ?
Sorry, I'm asking lots of questions. The French baroque scene really seems deep and fascinating, and there's lots to learn. I'm really enjoying the music. "A few of you mentioned the "speech" of the stops. I've not heard this expression before."
Usually this refers to how quickly a stop will "speak". Some speak very promptly when a key is pressed, other (especially low-pitched Reeds) may take some time for the sound to develop, All of this must be accounted for (kept in mind) during a Performance.
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by OrganoPleno Jan 22, 2022 12:12 PM
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RE: Determining Tempo in French Baroque Organ Works
Thanks again for the further suggestions.
I like the idea of listening to pieces for the first time after I've had a go at them on my own. I've been trying to do this when possible. But I can't always find recordings of the more obscure pieces, so I find I'm frequently left on my own. (My rendition of D'Agincourt's "Suite en 2iem Ton" is a perfect example of this. I recorded it before ever hearing anyone else's version and before I was even aware of registration conventions. So, rightly or wrongly, I just did it the way I felt it.) It's really quite enlightening to compare.
Thank you also for clarifying the concept of "speech". This makes perfect sense, and I understand it now.
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by The Half-baked Organist Jan 22, 2022 10:00 PM
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